Transcript:
Colin Seeberger: Hey everyone, welcome back to “The Tent,” your place for politics, policy, and progress. I’m Colin Seeberger.
A few days ago, we brought you an important conversation with Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker (D). Today, I’m excited to introduce you to another guest, Massachusetts Gov. Maura Healey (D). She joined us to talk about how she’s taking on President [Donald] Trump and his administration and what ideas she’s championing to improve the lives of the people in Massachusetts and all Americans.
I hope that you will enjoy our conversation and stick around to the end of the episode to find out who Gov. Healey chose for this year’s March Madness. Stay tuned for our conversation in just a beat.
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Seeberger: Maura Healey is the 73rd governor of Massachusetts and the first woman and openly LGBTQI+ person to hold the position. She previously served two terms as Massachusetts’ attorney general. Before that, she served as a business and commercial litigator, special assistant DA [district attorney] for Middlesex County, and in multiple roles in the state attorney general’s office.
Gov. Healey, thanks so much for joining us on “The Tent.”
Gov. Maura Healey: It’s great to be with you.
Seeberger: So I’m curious to get your perspective. You are a former state attorney general and a lawyer. We have seen Donald Trump lose in federal court pretty much every hour on the hour over the course of the last two months.
We’ve seen he is increasingly taking really extreme steps, invoking the Alien Enemies Act from more than 200 years ago just this past weekend, to execute some of his immigration policies. We have seen, just in the last few days, he and his allies are calling for the impeachment of a federal judge who has ruled against him. I’m curious to get your thoughts, as a legal expert, as somebody who has had to go to court and defend laws.
What do you think of this kind of approach to making policy? And can you really stand up for the rule of law if you’re, at the same time, calling for the impeachment or refusing to follow court orders?
Healey: Look, I can certainly answer as a former attorney general, as a lawyer, as a prosecutor. I can also answer as an American, an everyday American. And the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Americans—and it doesn’t matter what party you’re in—the vast majority of Republicans and Democrats believe that the president should follow the law.
And that makes a lot of sense because in this country, our whole system of government and a democratic government functions, remember, on the effective operation of three different branches. And the judiciary is an incredibly important branch. Its orders have always been respected and followed by presidents and their administrations. And the idea that this administration would not follow a court order is really counter to 250 years of American history.
So yes, it’s a big problem. The rule of law is just like the central pillar. We need to protect our institutions. We need to protect our courts. We need to protect our judges. And I think it’s really telling when Chief Justice [John] Roberts issues the statement that he did yesterday, basically taking President Trump head-on after he called for the impeachment of a judge simply because he disagreed with what that judge wrote in an opinion.
I also think I’m not surprised that the AGs [attorneys general] are having success. We had a lot of success back during Trump one, when I was an attorney general. They’re having success now. And I applaud them for going to court because what the Trump administration is doing, what the president is doing violates the Constitution. It violates the law. I think we’ve seen that—especially as governor, I look at the federal funding cases or the freezing of federal funds, and it just seems like instance after instance, the president is taking power away from Congress.
I mean, Congress should be standing up. Republicans in Congress should be standing up and not just letting this happen. But these are clear constitutional violations. And it’s so clear that that’s the reason that the AGs [attorneys general] are having success in the courts. And I think that will continue insofar as he continues to do things that are illegal or unconstitutional.
Seeberger: Instead, unfortunately, it seems like they’re cowering in the face of Elon Musk. Well I’m also curious to get your perspective as not just a former attorney general, but also as governor. You’ve been a real champion for consumers. And this week we saw news that Trump ordered the firing of multiple commissioners at the FTC [Federal Trade Commission].
This is, of course, coming on the heels of he and his treasury secretary having effectively neutered the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), an office that has won tens of billions of dollars for consumers who have been defrauded by predatory financial institutions.
Why are Trump and Musk dismantling these kinds of protections for consumers? And what kind of harm do you expect that the American people are going to suffer? And what would it look like if we were actually going to put the American people over special interests?
Healey: Well I think a couple of things are going on here. Number one, I think you’ve got the character of Elon Musk, who was being investigated by 11 different agencies. I think there were a total of 32 investigations ongoing against him and his entities by federal agencies. And by gutting these agencies, by dismantling them, by firing people from them, by shutting them down, that’s certainly been an effective way to kill any and all investigations into Elon Musk and all of his interests.
Seeberger: And these are investigations that preceded Elon Musk being a political donor for Donald Trump. I just think that’s a really important point.
Healey: Oh yeah.
Seeberger: Like, this is not an affect of some weaponized government, right? This is something that well predated Elon Musk’s unprecedented involvement in presidential politics.
Healey: Yeah, I mean, some of these have been going on for a few years. So that’s one thing.
The other thing I’d say is: I understand that there may be disagreement about the extent of regulation of industry and business. And that’s fair. We can have a discussion about that, and Congress can take action on that. And the president can take and exercise authority on that.
But here’s what’s so problematic about just getting rid of something like CFPB: Who are you going to turn to? I mean, I get calls in our office from grandparents scammed. I get calls from veterans who’ve been scammed. I get calls from businesses who’ve been scammed by other businesses.
And for the sake of the markets and protecting the integrity of markets, in our market system, for the sake of protecting people against fraud and deception by other people or—in some instances—companies, you got to have somewhere for these folks to go. And that was an agency that was a recourse for people and brought back to the pockets of everyday Americans hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars when they sought the vindication of their rights in those agencies.
So I just worry about lawlessness, in terms of what scammers might be able to get away with, and how much harm that that’s going to cause for people around the country.
Seeberger: Well they clearly don’t seem to care much about waste, fraud, and abuse in the private sector. They purport to care a lot about waste, fraud, and abuse in government. I’m curious to talk to you about this because I know that you’ve been really focused on some of the cuts that we’ve been seeing from Elon Musk and DOGE [the Department of Government Efficiency] that are having a real impact on low-income kids who depend on school lunch programs or veterans who rely on the VA [Department of Veterans Affairs] for health care after serving the country.
Is this stuff really making government more efficient? And I think that there are Americans who do want government to work more lean, work more efficient, work more effective, be more responsive to their needs. What would that actually look like? And are you doing anything in Massachusetts to help move us in that direction?
Healey: Well it’s frustrating. When I was attorney general, I used to actually prosecute cases of fraud and abuse by government within government, and so I’m familiar with that. I also think that every American should want all of our federal agencies and the federal government working as efficiently as possible, maximizing the use of taxpayer dollar, right?
Like, that’s what we all want. That’s certainly what I want in my state government and in my federal government. But that’s not what’s really going on here. Because what you have instead is Donald Trump empowering Elon Musk to get in there with DOGE and effectively wreak total havoc over our systems.
I mean, I’ll give you examples—CMS [Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services]. CMS delivers Medicare and Medicaid to Americans around this country. The other day, the systems were shut down because DOGE has been in there playing around with systems. We’ve had air traffic controllers fired by DOGE. We’ve had people who are researching cancer and all sorts of diseases effectively fired, had their funding cut off. That doesn’t make sense. We had the people who were guarding the nuclear stockpile, for God’s sakes, they were fired by DOGE.
So this in some instances just seems really dumb, the actions that have been taken.
Seeberger: Incompetent.
Healey: And sometimes it seems really indiscriminate, and sometimes it seems really cruel. I mean, just the other day they cut $30 million in funding for food that goes directly to kids in school to feed them and also supports a lot of farms and farmers. They are going to cut another 80,000 people from the VA—that’s about 9,000 people here in Massachusetts alone.
And I think about one fellow I met. He’s served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was deployed four times in combat, came back, wanted to continue with the mission, worked at a VA here in Massachusetts. He was fired. And to add insult to injury, the notice he got from the Trump administration was, “You’re fired for unsatisfactory performance.” It’s completely made up. He’s doing a fantastic job, but this is the action and activity of DOGE.
I don’t know where it’s going to go. I know that a lot of these actions have been filed in court by AGs [attorneys general], and a lot of courts have ruled that what they’re doing is wrong. But the problem is you wreak so much havoc in the meantime, you’ve had people who have left these federal agencies taking with them years and years of career experience.
And a lot of these folks—they’re apolitical. They’re just doing their jobs, right? Making sure that our medicines are safe, making sure that our food is safe, and that we have clean water, right? I mean, basic functions—making sure that Social Security checks get out the door and Medicare checks get out the door, and making sure that our national parks are up and running and functioning, making sure that we have the firefighters out there to fight wildfires that are raging in places, right?
So it just doesn’t make any sense to me. And I say that as somebody who actually had time in her career going after cases of fraud and abuse and waste in government. This is not what’s happening. Instead, it’s just this wrecking ball perpetrated by people who have no clue, it seems, over what they are doing, other than this idea, “We’re going to drive down headcount by getting rid of all of these people.” And who they drive out doesn’t seem much to matter to them, but it does have real-world consequences, impact on Americans. Big time.
Seeberger: For sure. For sure. Well it’s Women’s History Month, and as Massachusetts’ first woman governor, you’ve been a real champion for women, especially in terms of reproductive rights. Can you talk about why and how we should observe Women’s History Month this year, and what policies you’re focused on championing to further advance the rights of women, especially under this really hostile administration?
Healey: Well I’m really proud to be the first woman elected governor in Massachusetts. I’m proud to work with Democratic women governors around this country who are doing phenomenal jobs and showing tremendous leadership and really delivering results to their states.
I’m also the daughter of a really amazing woman who raised basically five kids on her own. She was a single mom for many years and went back to work as a nurse and a school nurse and taught me a lot about strength and resilience and caretaking.
In Massachusetts, as governor, I have the opportunity to make sure that we’re doing everything we can to empower women and girls. And so I’m proud that as governor, I’ve taken several actions.
One, when it comes to accessing health care and women’s health care, that we have the strongest laws in the country to protect patients, to protect providers, to protect those seeking access to reproductive health care. I also stockpiled mifepristone in the very, very early days.
We also passed a law I was proud to sign on maternal health, making sure that we have more resources available for women, both before delivery and also postpartum. And that’s just so, so important. We have great laws and protections in place and policies in place for women that we continue to further every day and champion, and I think that’s why we were recently ranked the number one state to live if you’re a woman, the number one state to have a family, the number one state to have a baby. These are all good things that I think show what a good leadership and good policy can look like and result in.
I’ll tell you this month—today, actually—I invited a group of women veterans in to celebrate this great member of Congress, Edith Norris Rogers, who came from Massachusetts. She was one of the earliest women to serve in Congress. She actually authored the GI Bill. And she also was the person who established the Women’s Auxiliary Corps, which became the Women’s Army Corps, which resulted in 350,000 women serving in the United States military in the early years. And so we celebrated her today. We actually had all of these uniforms that women wore in World War II, and a little bit later, on display in my governor’s office. They’re here for the month.
And I say that because last night, I was horrified when I got home and I was watching the news, and I saw that the Department of Defense and Arlington National Cemetery, their websites, they were removing all photographs of women veterans, of women soldiers, right?
So in that moment, I get to, as governor, say: “Not only are we going to continue to support our women veterans, we are going to show them off and remind people about the history of women serving in the military.” So that’s a little bit about governors and leadership in this time, in the face of some really outrageous things happening by the Trump administration.
Seeberger: For sure. And you’re not just supporting families, you’re not just the number one state for supporting families right out of the gate, you’re also the number one state for student success in your public schools, which is, I think, a real testament to the long-term investments that you’re making—not just in babies, but kids over the course of early childhood and throughout their development.
Healey: Massachusetts, we are number one for education, for health care, for innovation, and we’re going to continue to do the work, especially on education. We’re home to the oldest school in the country, oldest, first library, and the like. So we’re going to continue to invest in education and in early child care here in the state. That’s super important to me.
Seeberger: Well are you going to invest in basketball is the other question? Because it is March Madness, and you are a former basketball player yourself. So I’ve got to ask: Are you looking forward to March Madness? Do you have a team? Who’s your pick?
Healey: I love March Madness. I played college ball. In fact, my team, Harvard, is in the tournament. They’re the 10th seed, going up against Gov. [Gretchen] Whitmer’s (D-MI) Michigan State [University] Spartans on Saturday. So I’ll be rooting hard for the Crimson. But I love this time of year. I love watching all the games.
I especially love watching the women’s games. I mean, you’ve seen the rise in interest in the WNBA, and it’s awesome. I played pro ball after I played college. There was not a WNBA then, so what you did is you went to Europe and played. And to see the evolution, to see how far the game has come, it’s just super, super exciting. So I’m really looking forward to that.
And my pick, at the end of the day, in the women’s bracket was UConn [University of Connecticut]. I think they’ve got the right mix. I have a lot of respect for all the teams. I love coach Dawn Staley—a lot of respect for her. But my bracket shows UConn. I may be wrong.
Seeberger: UConn, folks. You heard it here first. We’ll be tuning in. Good luck with your bracket. Thank you so much for joining us on “The Tent,” governor.
Healey: Thanks for having me. Take good care.
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Seeberger: “The Tent” is a podcast from the Center for American Progress Action Fund. It’s hosted by me, Colin Seeberger, and co-hosted by Daniella Gibbs Léger. Erin Phillips is our lead producer and guest host for this episode. Kelly McCoy is our supervising producer, Mishka Espey is our booking producer, and Muggs Leone is our digital producer. Hai Phan, Olivia Mowry, and Toni Pandolfo are our video team.
Views expressed by guests of “The Tent” are their own, and interviews are not endorsements of a guest’s perspectives. You can find us on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.